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MaxRules (Brandon_price)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: | 
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Bob look on the classified ads page of Route 6x6. There is a Buffalo for sale there that shows what the engine area looks like. I don't see any way to make another row of seats. Get a Max IV if you need more passenger room.
MaxRules |
Bob Graham
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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Yea , thanks Max, but that is the unit I was thinking about buying, supposed to go look at it next weekend. Wife is kind of stuck on the Bigfoot though, and I kinda agree , it looks cooler, even though it's only 3 wheel drive (LOL) |
jkemp22
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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Bob,
that three wheel drive theory is false. The Bigfoot is a great 6x6 and seats four with ease. That bigfoot will go places that Buffalo truck won't think about going. Before you buy anything pop the lid on that Buffalo truck and look under the Bigfoot. The Bigfoot is built much better that the Max you won't be disappointed. ..Kemp |
roadwolf
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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bob;
the argo is most definately a three wheeler, and the emperor really did wear hez briefs' to tha ball.
i don't understand why so many invest big cash money for a six and get a three wheeler and spend so much effort defending it!
check out previous disussions on this subect in the archives on this site. |
JTBarleman
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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ATTTENTION ALL YOU "KNOW IT ALL" MAX OWNERS
Me and my "THREE WHEEL DRIVE" Argo will be at the Humphrey Rodeo in July. Since you guys say my Argo is only a three wheel drive machine. I'll be more than happy to let any OR all of you set up the conditions under which you say my Argo is only three wheel drive. You can then place your foot under the side of my ARGO that you say doesn't drive ... AND ... SHOW ME THAT I CAN'T RUN OVER IT ...! :-)
JT |
pete6x6
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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Guys,
All I can say is I rode in Pete Ceagle's max up in Jersey and we rode through some nasty swamp and she didn't even blink. The argo although not fast by any means of the imagination is a contender. |
Pete Cagle (Petec)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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sorry to correct you Pete but you rode in a ARGO 8 not a max . we only went through the easy stuff because it was getting too cold to play in the real mud |
Bob Bascomb
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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JT. Explain this.... Before I bought my MAX I looked at a argo big foot. I had the argo dealer put a floor jack under one side of the argo. He then started it up and engaged the transmission. Guess what? The argo never moved. The side that was in the air spun like crazy. The most surprising thing was that the dealer was shocked. He said his distributor told him that is was true six wheel drive.
Also there is a blatent lie in the argo brochure. Let me quote...."For safty and ease of handling, the argo steering transmission provides continuous tourque to all axles." Let me get the boots... It's getting deep.
By the way if you use the "floor jack" test on a MAX it will drag the floor jack across the floor in a circle while spinning BOTH sides.
This was one of the reasons I bought a MAX. Plus the dealer actually knew how the machine he was trying to sell actually worked. |
jerry
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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Hey guys, I just came up with a new way to spell wrong. R-O-A-D-W-O-L-F |
pete6x6
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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Pete,
Whoops I meant to say argo did I use the "m" word? shame shame. See what happens when you wake up at 4 am everyday :) Hahaha. |
mr. tinker
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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how about a true test once and for all max vs. argo? one tow strap,one argo,and one max sixwheeler of same h.p. put tow strap between the two and see who pulls who and also make note of what all six wheels of each machine does. |
david berger (Davidrrrd)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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bob where is the true six wheel drive when your adjusting your corse as you go up a hill?
you know when you pull your left or right lateral back into nutrel for a sec to adjust your corse a little you actualy have three wheel drive! and an argo still has six, too bad the dealer dident sit inside and operate the machine as he could have draged your sorry floor jack all the way to canada you fool,
all though you do have a point-the dealer should know more about his product!!
hows this: neather argo nor max has a true six wheel drive system!! thats right!! but thay do exist! the baker hill trans in attex's was true sixwheeel drive and amphicat had it too! maybe several others but botom line is :
...... RI & ODG HAVENT GOT IT TOO SELL........ |
jkemp22
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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The Argo trans works similar to a car's limited slip. If you jack it up ya one side will spin because there is not weight. If someone bought a machine because a salesman jacked up one side on concrete then shame on them. Also I heard "Roadwolf" state that Argo's are soooo expensive. Take a look at the price list. The Max is comparable in price and most of the time more that an Argo. The cheapest Max IV (that seats four subjects) is $7,250. The cheapest Argo (that also seats four subjects) is $6,800. I've even shopped around and found the Bigfoot as low as $7,400 brand new. And the Max is nowhere built like the Argo and that is not even debateable. The Max is a good Machine but so is the Argo and thats the bottom line. |
drsam
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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OK let me understand this in the example above, if you were to jack up the left side of an Argo
How would you make the right side turn?
I imagine your answer will be, to lock up (Pull back ) the Left lateral, there by providing torque to the right side.
Do I have it right. |
Fred G from PA
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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I still can't believe it... Using the simplest example I have ever seen...The argo folks still won't admit that they are wrong. I've been looking at these vehicles for about 8 months now and am getting ready to purchase my MAX. Here it is in plain english...
Argo uses an open differential. The ONLY time it can drive both sides is if the traction is equal on both sides. The instant one side loses traction all the power transfers to that side. I am not buying this vehicle to run on roads.
Let me also say this. Both vehicles are impressive in where they can go. In my research I feel that the MAX offers more power and bang for the buck.
Before the nay sayers get all over me. I rode in a bigfoot and a MAX IV-600T at Humphrey last summer and found the MAX to be the best value, and best performing vehicle. It sure seemed that the argos (in general) had a hard time over the rock trail. |
Jerold
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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You know, back in the late 70's all the rage throughout the Hot Rod crowd was to have a V8 engine in a little Chevy Vega. It grew from there. Folks started cramming V8's into anything small. Chevy Luv trucks became a favorite target for the gearheads and grease monkeys. I even saw a Mopar 426 hemi shoe-horned into of all things, a Ford Maverick. The whole concept was driven by the power to weight ratio thought process. Maybe that was the birth place of this PSI to the ground banter that so many like to spout off about. The problem with these setups was not the engines. They were fine. The problem was that the Vega's, the Luv's (sounds like a disposable baby diaper doesn't it), and the Mavericks were pieces of crap. Same thing applies to the Maxes. Problem is not the engines and trannys, they are very good. It's the rest of the max that's crap! The bodies, the frames, the bearings, the chains, the axles, the sprockets, the electrical systems, and the cables. Don't just take my word for it. Go back and read through some of the old posts on this site. Not counting engine problems, Max problems out number Argo problems about 10:1. Engine problems tend to be about equal between the two brands. Probably because they both use the same B&S engines except for the big Kohler and Kawasaki. I did however notice more reported break downs of the T20 than of the ODG tranny. Compare the two brands side by side. Argo's are more heavy duty all the way around. Kinda like comparing a 1-ton truck to a.... , a Vega or a Luv or a Maverick. |
Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max Dealer (Fred4dot)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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Jerold, PSI on the ground has nothing to do with power. It is total weight of your machine compared to the tire or track contact area. It provides flotation so one can get through the soft stuff (mud, snow, gravel, sand, etc.). Power means nothing unless you have traction (or turn your wheels fast enough to be as a propeller). Low PSI on the ground gives you traction in the soft stuff (low PSI in the tire gives more contact area). - So low PSI on the ground and power equal Max. |
OJ Mcduffie
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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Yeah.... The MAX is the 1 Ton truck and the argo is not even a lowley vega, it's more like an AMC Pacer. |
david berger (David3rdd)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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power to turn wheels fast enoughv to be as a propeller equal attex! |
steven (Walleye713)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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I have been on this list a long time now and I enjoy everyones insights. My questions to Fred G. from Pa are these: "Why did ODG choose the open differential if it impares performance? Are there benefits that make the decision explainable?"
Also I encourage anyone else to explain the answer to me. I have an Argo Conquest that serves me well but I like this topic since I do not yet understand it fully.
thanks again to All!
also Brandon I wish i could ride behind you some day to learn my limits, I never get stuck but i am also timid. If i could learn the limits my hunting oportunities would be expanded.
thanks
steve |
jkemp22
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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Everyone bashes the Argo for one thing and one thing only..the trans. How can someone say that they have compared the two machines and found the Max to have "more bang for the buck". What are you really comparing..the trans? Did anyone compare anything else but the trans? There is no dispute that the T-20 is an excellent trans but that has nothing to do with quality of the machine as a whole. I own an Argo but I like the Max also. This debate could go on forever with no resolution. The Max owners are always bashing the Argo trans system calling them three wheelers. Maybe the Argo owners should address the problems with the Max such as the paper thin body.
Oh ya and for Fred G let me ask you this in plain english. If the Argo is only three wheel drive then how can it drive straight ahead? Seems with your theory the Argo would just turn in a circle until you pulled the stick back. If the machine you test drove had this problem you should try driving a machine that works correctly. |
pete6x6
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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Guys,
I just have to applaud Dave Bergers comment. Attex! Hahahah While you guys are trying to figure out which one had three wheel drive I'll have speed past all of you and covered you with mud from head to toe! :) Hahaha
"The beast lives she's called attex" |
MaxRules (Brandon_price)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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Jkemp, everyone bashes the Argo tranny because that is really the only thing separating us from a lawnmower and it really makes a difference. Lets say we are looking to buy a quad. I want a big bore 4x4 but do not want a full auto belt drive. That leaves out most all Polaris quads, but they do have the Expedition that is gear driven. You could also choose the Honda Foreman 450 but we want TRUE all wheel drive and you can only get that with a Polaris. Others may want an automatic but not with the belt, then you can choose the Honda Rubicon. All these Some Terrain Vehicles are basically the same except for the tranny. My point is, the transmission makes the machine.
I am suprised at the number of people with no understanding of how a differential works. The Argo can go strait and turn all six wheels when the traction on both sides is EQUAL. The instant one side has less traction, is spins wildly while the other side is in neutral. This can't happen with the Max. No matter what traction the wheels have, all six wheels will turn. Another benefit of the T-20 is the fact that a skilled driver can make a true six wheel drive turn by making one side turn slower than the other, but it still puts power to the ground.
I've driven many different Maxs, Argos, and quads. I can speak from experience that true all wheel drive ALWAYS goes farther than a vehicle with a differential. I really wish ODG would get with it and take that car tranny out of their skid steer.
MaxRules |
Lazerman (Lazerman)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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Maybe the Argo guys can understand this example, (by the way I don’t dislike Argo’s I almost bought one until I read on this site that they have an open differential, If I’m going off road I want true six wheel drive. Ever seen a car with an open differential take off at a drag strip or on the street? Only one wheel spins the other does not. Watch a car that has a positraction rear, Both wheels spin.
Ever had your car stuck in the snow? Only one wheel spins unless you have a positraction rear, then both will spin. I remember someone on the site said, while you have your Argo floating in the water (the one he was talking about had tracks, but it doesn’t matter) to reach down and grab one side, you will be able to easily stop that side from turning, (same as a car with an open rear). I use to make my living as an auto mechanic and have put cars in gear with all wheels off the ground and could easily stop either side with my hands as long as it had an open rear. It’s the same difference between the Max and the Argo.
As long as the Argo has equal traction under both wheels, yes all six are engaged. Try this test for your self. Put the right wheels of your Argo on ice or mud and the left wheels on solid ground (no ice or mud). You may have to tie it off to a tree or something to hold it in place. Now try to go forward, you’ll find that only the wheels on the ice will spin. The ones on the dry ground will just sit there. If you did this with a Max all six wheel will spin. Hence the true all wheel drive. So I challenge someone on this site with an Argo to try this and let us all know the results. Again I like a lot of things about the Argo but couldn’t get past the open differential problem. If they ever put the T120 trans in an Argo I would probably consider buying one.
So please someone take up my challenge and let us know the results. |
E L McKenney
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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for those of you who say that the argo can't be three wheel drive because it woukld only go in a circle, look at your cars, open differential equalling one wheel drive and they can go straight. The other day my neighbor was trying to back into my drive with his four wheel drive chevy and the passenger side front and the driver side rear tire were spinning; and we call this a four wheel drive because it has open differentials only two wheels will drive in the soft stuff. I have a max, I have seen an attex but have yet to be introduced to an argo, if it has six wheels and bounces through the rough where four wheels fear to tread , bring it on lets bounce. |
Fred G
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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Steven
odg uses a differential simply because thats what they make. They are already making differentials for the lawn and garden industry. So basically they are using a differential because they can make it cheaply. If they had to develop a new drive system no one could afford it. Oh yeah... they did come up with a new drive system...it's in the centaur...oh yeah.... no one can afford it. |
david berger (David3rdd)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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brandon thats bullshit, nobody can make a t-20 operate that way
however if you hapen to know a skiled driver he or she would never have that problem in your argo example becaus they wouldent operate it that way,
wake up your dreeming of a t-20 without self energizing bands(double wound bands)theres no fethering them you canot control them that way and thats there downfall, the t-20 is tough but clumsy & harsh,and inside each half you can find a little diferential caled a planetary set, yes it's true one side spins wildly until you stop it and then the other (wich is tied to your wheels ) has to turn.so not only dose the max have a diferentile folks its got two of them ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
and as long as we are wiling to compair auto rear ends :isent the posi the most uncontrolable, most of the guys i roderaced with as a kid had alot of trouble staying on the road because while thay spinout ther posi's thay go sideways and cant hold there corse, i could do a figure 8 around them while burning my tires, thats limited slip for yah, yup even in reverse.
and who says you cant burn boath sides, i could but one side was very light, |
Jerold
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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Like I said earlier, the engine and tranny in the max is good. I'll even go so far as to say exceptionally good. It's the rest of the machine that's a piece of crap. I would like to know for my own knowledge: Have any of you Argo devotees experienced any sort of breakdowns with you're tranny? I've never heard of any. I have heard of broken bands in the T-20 though. I've also never heard of bent axles, broken chains, blown out bearings, broken cables, cracked bodies, leaking seals, etc in an Argo even in the older ones. These problems seem to be common and bountiful amongst both new and old maxes. A cheap winch or even a cheaper come-along will get me and my Argo unstuck. There is nothing a max owner can purchase that will transform his ride from junk status, even when he replaces the broken parts with new parts. Thats because the replacement parts are crap too. Their just too light duty. Argo should adopt the Moen Faucet slogan "Buy it for looks, Buy it for life". Max slogan would be, "Buy it for a nice transmission, then keep replacing all the other parts until you realize you could have bought an Argo with a winch for a lot less money" |
Pete Cagle (Petec)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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wasnt there a old Ford slogan "Buy a Ford buy the best ride a mile walk the rest " that fits a max. there is alot of better built machines out there that run the t-20 in them even thought you can not buy them new . like i have said past i have run max, attex ,hustler, and argo. my main machine is a argo 8 and to just beat the hell out of and go Fast i have a attex with a 500 in it . if you know your machine and learn how to run it any one will get you where you want to go within reason they all get stuck that is why we have winchs |
Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max Dealer (Fred4dot)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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David,I can't imagine that your arms are not capable of holding still enough to allow your T-20 to be patially engaged in drive. Maybe Brandon and I are the only ones who have experienced this, but I don't think so. I have driven about 75 different Max and every one of them has allowed me to partially engage the bands. I know lots of people who, when they are learning how to drive, tend to pull back on the sticks a little when they are climbing and think their machine has no power(as the hill gets steeper, the partailly engaged bands do not have enough contact to continue to take the machine up the hill). What Brandon is saying is that you can use this to your advantage if you know what is happening. I know that I can keep power to my wheels when turning while going up hill (I suppose I could be engaging/releasing so fast that I can't see (or feel) my hand move, but I don't think so. I really think maybe you are using Ford oil in your tranny rather than Dextron II as you should be using.
The Skid steer manual advises against allowing the bands to slip excessively due to inadequate pressure to prevent overheating. I do not slip the band for very long and I am aware of overheating, but I have never had a failure. |
Lazerman (Lazerman)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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Well I’ve heard a lot of talk but haven’t seen any Argo takers on the test I suggested above. If what all the Max owners say is true (Argo’s are only three wheel drive), please someone take up my challenge and the question will be settled once and for all. Who will step up to the plate and end this bickering once and for all!!!! If I owned an Argo I sure would want to know. By the way I have never done this with my Max but if that’s what’s stopping the Argo owners let me know I’ll go first if, I can get a promise from an Argo owner they are willing to do the same. Remember no breaking allowed!
The Gauntlet has been laid down. It’s put up or shut time! |
Pete Cagle (Petec)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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where are you located at i hope you atleast have a max lv with all trash talking . and what is up with no braking let the machines and drivers do the talking . if you are close enought NJ stop in on april 28 for my next ride and try out my trails i had a max 11 last year wide open in a swamp and a argo bigfoot just about ran over me |
Chris Heili (Trailboss)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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TWO TRANNYS... Thats the answer. Just check out any old Sierra Trail Boss. One tranny for each side. TRUE 6 WHEEL DRIVE! You can even reverse one side while going forward with the other. Try that in your Argo or Max. Neither of those can do this because one tranny cannot do this for both sides. Hence a differential. As for all the open differentials, I suggest some you actually dis-assemble one and play around with the planetary gears for a while. You will see that it's one side or the other only. As for posi- or limited slip, they are a form of open-diff except they have clutches that transfer the power to the non-slipping wheel. On a car with posi-, on icy roads, you can acually feel the power shifting back and forth between sides. Only a locked differential is true all wheel drive. If you want true 6 wheel drive you need a separate tranny for each side, or you would have to lock the two sides together (now how do steer? big grin). |
mr. tinker
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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the t-20 can be made to go one side forward and the other side backwards.the shift linkage in a max changes each side the same.if you were to modify the linkage you could achieve spinning on your own axis.the t-20 manual tells you this is possible.the t-20 can be made to make one side turn slower than the other by slipping one side. |
Jerold
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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Lazerman, the true test is not a side by side one time romp in the mud. The true test is starting out with two new machines that are comparable to each other. Let's say an argo vanguard and a max 2 500-t or better yet a bigfoot and a 600-t max iv. Both will be standard models with no options. Same engines and tire size so you can't cry foul. Now for the test. Both machines operated by experienced drivers. Not through a few mud holes one saturday afternoon. But rather every weekend for a year. Really hard smashmouth style riding. What ever one is subjected to so shall the other be. No maintenance (Maxdrules should like that rule) except for oil changes and replacement of broken parts. At the end of the year compare the two. Compare overall condition, compare repair requirements, receipts for replacement parts, etc. Only a test like this will represent the true long range value and dependability of each machine. My guess is that the argo will incur additional wear and tear from having to tow the max home so often. |
Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max Dealer (Fred4dot)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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Uh Chris, have you ever seen a T-20? It is two trannys in one (each side operates completely independently of the other - except for input). Yes, the T-20 can be set up to have one side in forward and the other side in reverse (but there is no gain in doing so). The operator has complete control of whether one side turns or not and how much power is put to the wheels.
So much of this has been discussed on this forum before. Say what you want about the T-20, there are many of us who understand how it works and know how to make it do what we want to do. Those of you that don't have the T-20 or don't understand how it works, will have to live with what you have. |
jkemp22
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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Lazerman
You say you are a mechanic but you must not understand the way a posi rear end works. The only true posi traction rear end is a Detroit locker. A posi rear end in a passenger car still slips when going around corners. When you engage the motor hard from a dead stop both tires are turning but there is no traction!! If the rear end did not slip then the tires would chirp when turning corners or you would break something. And as for your test.... that would be unsafe and almost impossible to tie the 6x6 to a tree half on ice and half off and then grab a wheel. I did the next best thing. I found a large muddy area with muck about 10" deep. I went through the mud and guess what? All six tires are stinning! Now you clearly said that with slippery surfaces that only 3 wheels would spin. I went through this mud hole and that is about as slippery as you can get without going on the ice. I also took my Argo on the ice several times this winter. I never had a problem with loss of traction.
E.L Mckenney
Hey when is the last time you looked at your car? Last time I looked at mine the front tires were not tied to the rear tires. If you ran a track from the rear tire of your car to the front...it would turn in a circle.
Brandon
I too have a machine with a T-20 transmission and it has lots of power. You speak of turning using all six tires. What exactly is that good for? If your riding on solid terrain what would be the use of this "superior trans". The "3 wheel" design seems to turn my Argo just fine and there is not caution with heating up bands. If you are in slippery, muddy, or snowy terrain, once you lose traction it makes no difference if all wheels are spinning or not. I will use the above mud hole as an example. The portion I am speaking of connects to a deep creek. The closer you get to the creek the deeper the mud gets. I took the Argo through the mud and when I got rite next to the edge of the creek the machine got stuck. Not because it is "3 wheel drive" but because there is nothing for the tires to grip to. I then took my Attex 400 Chief through the exact same spot. I again got stuck when rite next to the creek. This mahine has a t-2o trans and Goodyear Rawhide III tires. The Argo only has Runamuck tires. If this all wheel drive system is in fact better that why did the Attex get stuck in the same spot? I have owned the machine for almost two years and I know how to ride it so that's no excuse. No matter what type of trans your machine has it depends souly on the terrain you ride in. If there is nothing for the tires to turn it makes no difference if you have 6 wheel drive of 1 wheel turning your stuck. And if any Max owner would like to try their machine in this same spot feel free to contact me. If the Attex can't make it the Max sure won't and that is undisputeable. |
Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max Dealer (Fred4dot)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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Jerold, Your idea is a good one, but there are a couple of problems. 1st off, there are no comparable models between Max and Argo. The Argo uses a 10 inch wide tire with very little tread (runamuck) as standard because the design (with the exception of the bigfoot) doesn't tolerate well anything more. There is no way to compensate for the Argo's extra weight and give it the same PSI on the ground as a Max (I suppose you could handicap the max (as they do race horses) and make it carry more weight to be equal to the Argo and make it use the same tires the Argo uses, but then it wouldn't be a standard machine or an equal test).
The Argo would always have to go first because an Argo just can't go where a max can and it wouldn't be a far test if the max continuously did things that the Argo was incapable of. The no maintenance for one year of weekends would probably be all right (even Brandon's Max II 450T stood up for a year and I'm sure he used it at least five days of the week).
I doubt there would be any repairs on either vehicle (I know if recommended maintenance was done there would probably be none) because experinced drivers don't break their machines very often. The only broken parts I have ever had are wehen I have done something wrong.
There is nothing wrong with being proud of your Argo, just don't expect it to be able to do what a max can do. You are probably right that a lighter built machine will require more upkeep, especially if rode hard and put away wet, but the main reason is that it does so much more and is often asked to exceed its abilities. Its like that one fellow who said his Honda would go places his Argo wouldn't. I doubt there are many experienced Max owners that cannot go where no other machine has ever gone or will ever be. |
Chris Heili (Trailboss)
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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Fred, you are right. It is basically two trannys in one, but the shifter basically marries it into one transmission with two separately controllable outputs (speed-wise only, direction is controlled by the shifter). I was not aware of the fact that you could modify the shifter for separate forw/rev per side. This would accomplish the point I was trying to make. I just like the fact that I have only 2 levers ( Not 2 levers and a shifter) and can control forw/rev and speed and braking (each side independently) with just the two levers. Sorry if I wasn't real clear on my last post. I do disagree on the part about being there "being no gain in doing so". It makes for easy turn arounds on the tight trails thru my woods. All my trails are narrow to be as un-obtrusive as possible. I guess in wide open spaces it really wouldn't matter. It's all just a personal preference. No slams against one brand or the next. They are all 6-wheelers and that makes them alright by me! |
E L McKenney
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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And how hard do you have to fight your steering wheel while going down the road. If you want another example, those of you who grew up in farm country, what happens when you stand on the steering brake in a tractor, you turn, as I see it that is the same thing that an argo does. The same principle works on the steering brakes in a sand rail. |
Steve Laxil
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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Well if the Argo is only 3 wheel drive then that doesn't say much about the Max. My 3 wheel argo can go anyplace a Max can go and it takes them six wheels. |
MaxRules (Brandon_price)
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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I have owned a Trail Boss with the two separate transmissions. It is a good set up for that vehicle but not one I would chose over the T-20. My Hustler was made with two shifters so you can shift one side of the T-20 in forward and the other in reverse. I don't like it and have not found any advantage to it. I can shift my Max fast and easy with the one shifter. With the Hustler, you are juggling two shifters and trying to get them each into gear.
Jkemp, there are many reasons why the Attex got stuck in the same place. It could possibly be an impassable area for any machine, but it was most likely your own fault. You brag on how much power your Attex has. That is exactly what you don't want in that type of mud. If you have that power you better know how to use it or you will be stuck. The majority of the 6x6 drivers I see try to come out of a muddy/sandy creek like you describe have the throttle nailed when they hit soft terrain. This gives the tires no chance to grab traction and you burry it before there was any hope at all. I drive my Max through terrain like this by giving it very little throttle so the wheels turn as slow as possible. You can even jump on the back to lift the front out of the water a bit. I bet I could even drive that Argo through something like that. Getting me out of the Max and into the Argo would be the only problem you would have to deal with.
MaxRules |
Lazerman (Lazerman)
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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Boy what a discussion! Haven’t been back on the site sense yesterday around 3:00.
Judging by some of the responses to my challenge and some of the things I said, some of you guys need to go back and read it again. Boy, a lot of miss quotes! Sense some folks don’t seem to understand what makes the Argo three wheel drive and the Max six wheel drive no matter how it’s explained I’m just going to exit this part of the discussion, no sense in beating a dead horse. As to the subject of the Max being able to have either side of the trans shifted independently of the other side. I modified the shift linkage on mine so I can do just that. I can put one side in forward and one in reverse. The reason I did this is because sometimes if your in real slippery mud and lock up one side to turn left or right the machine may not have enough traction on the side that’s engaged to turn the machine. By putting one side in forward and the other in reverse you are now putting power to both sides to accomplish your turn. Believe me it works. I’ve had plenty of times when the Max wouldn’t turn, I put the side on the direction I want to turn in into reverse and boy it turns on a dime! It works so well I don’t know why the factors doesn’t offer it as standard or even an option. My guess is it does take some extra getting use to. By the way I do think both Argo’s and Max’s are great machines. If your happy with what ya got that’s what’s important. |
pete6x6
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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Brandon,
I'd rather have power than not. But then again I could putt around idling your max too and not get stuck :)
"The Beast Lives Shes Called Attex" |
Travis Chrystal (Travisch)
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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I own both a MAX IV and a Argo Bigfoot. I'm here to say that the Bigfoot is the better machine - HANDS DOWN!!. Fred will chime in and tell you that my max is 10 years old but its not really. The drivetrain is new and thats what everyone is talking about here. The Argo is built to obviously higher standards with durability and long life in mind. Its more comfortable to climb and descend hills in, feels more stable in the water and is more user friendly. The true 6x6 in the MAX is nice but with ground clearances in both machines close to the same its no show stopper for the argo. Fred also brags about PSI on the ground - does anyone drive in 3 feet of powered sugar - thats the only place where PSI might make a big difference. Those runamuck tires are also a pretty good tire. I'was never able to damage one. They just look like poor tires. |
jsaylors
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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Travis, I agree 100%. I also have both. A max II and an argo conquest. The argo is by far the better machine. I'm in the same boat. My max is an older one but everything on it is new with in the last 2 years. The building standards of the Argo are WAY better. It is a very heavy duty product. Now with all that said, the max is still fun to drive. It's more like playing with a toy. The argo is more like operating a tool to get jobs done. My problem is lack of space in my garage, so I guess I'll sell the max. Anyone interested? It's located in Alaska. |
Jerry
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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I guess everyone is different. I dumpped my big foot and now have a IV-600T I am a much better and happier person because of it.
I had a hard time getting parts for the argo. I had to wait 3 weeks to get an axle. I went through 3 of them. I have had the MAX twice as long as the argo and have only bent 1 axle and had the replacement in 3 days. I am very hard on my equipment and expect service when i break it. Note I said when I break it. I break everythig I ride. In my experience both machines are well built but the MAX is the best machine.
Why did the chains on by argo rub on the frame since day 1? Oh they all do it. Now there is a plastic block on the frame so the chain rubs on it. Now thats quality. |
jkemp22
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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Brandon
I have tried the "put..put" approach but the machine still gets stuck. You are rite that spot is probably impassable for any machine. Everyone keeps saying that a Max can go where an Argo can't and in that case that's not true. Driving tactics are a large part of where the machine gets stuck or just keep going. |
Steve Laxil
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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Lazerman
Have you ever owned or operated an Argo? Well come back when you know what your talking about.....Steve |
Shop Talk: Tech Tips and Q&A section